keh han さん
thanks for sharing this. i haven't been popping into the forums for awhile now and your sharing has enriched me, somewhat ^_^

Lydiaちゃん

I take offense at the word "somewhat". Just kidding

皆さん

I would like to try to define what "fluency in Japanese" means. Among Japanese learners, fluency can mean many things so it is a "hot" topic i.e. people get hot under their collars

My definition is as follows:

If a non-native speaker of Japanese speaks Japanese at the average speed of a native Japanese speaker and use expressions 言い回し that a native Japanese uses for that particular context and situation, then he/she is a fluent Japanese speaker.

Another point is, I believe that once a learner REALISES that he/she has used the wrong expression while speaking, he/she can self-correct himself/herself. Native Japanese speakers also sometimes search for the right word to use when speaking. You will know this when they say 「えーと、なんだっけ。。。」 or 「何て言うか」

Allow me to relate an anecdote:

In 2003 when I was studying Japanese full-time in Tokyo, I met a fellow Singaporean lady who was then studying for her Japanese Linguistics undergraduate degree as a PSC scholar at University of Tokyo 東京大学. Before that, she had studied Japanese as a third language from Sec 1 till JC 2. When we became friends, I asked her how long she took before she felt that she could speak fluent Japanese after she came to Japan. She thought for a while and replied 3 years (if I remembered correctly).

Thinking back on her reply now, I've come to the following conclusion:

When a person speaks his/her first language or second language that is almost equal to his/her first language, he/she literally speaks what is on his/her mind i.e. thoughts are directly expressed in the language itself. These thoughts are NOT translated into Japanese first and then spoken. If a learner has reached this stage, then he/she has become fluent.

On a side note, many native Japanese are not fluent in English because the way they learnt English at school is via translation i.e. they translate English to Japanese in their heads so whenever they want to say something in English, they will first translate Japanese into English first and then say the translated output. There are 2 weaknesses:

1. The translation, even if done within milliseconds, is too slow for speech
2. The result of direct translation of Japanese into English is unnatural and sometimes, even incorrect English

A essential element of attaining fluency in Japanese (or any other language) is one's sensitivity to language. For example, when a person feels that a word/an expression sounds "weird", and can provide the correct word/expression, then he/she possesses the sensitivity. Although this sensitivity is more or less inborn, a person can "train" this sensitivity by reading/listening to a LOT of Japanese, consciously THINK about what he/she has read, and CHECK the dictionary if he/she doesn't understand a word/express.

In a Japanese-learning thread of a local forum which I frequently visit, I noticed that a lot of people write ungrammatical and sometimes incorrect Japanese so my conclusion is that these people have not yet developed their sensitivities.

Thus, I strongly urge learners to develop their own sensitivities!

Comments/opinions are welcome.

Hi guys,

Adding on to what keh han has said. I'll like to share my fair bit to this fluency...

Me, being a Singaporean... trained under the "Japanese way of learning", i would call it, rather than the "Singapore way of learning"... will put this in another thread.

Back to main topic.

I don't know how others look at me, but when i judge myself, i think i am able to speak Japanese at maybe a slower speed than an average speed of a native. I won't dare to say i am fluent, but at least i am able to understand "somewhat" when i visit Japan.

Talking about the part that a learner can REALISE himself/herself that he/she used the wrong expression, sometimes i find i can do that. That's was after i went to Japan for 2 weeks on a business trip and came back.

One of the good points i'll like to share is when you find that, when you wanna express something, but you don't know how to...That's where Keh Han's point come in. saying 「えーと、なんだっけ。。。」

If you become very sensitive to Japanese, you would find that sometimes when a person makes a little small mistake even on the particle, you are able to spot it, i think that's already very good.

Good advice from Keh Han on the LTC!

For me, another thing i wanna point out is are you able to think out of the box?

We always learn in normal Japanese classes,

e.g
わたしはごはんをたべます (I eat rice) Lesson 6 Minna no Nihongo

but when we are out of the classroom, are we able to say things like

"I did not eat tomato, i only ate rice"?

What i am trying to say is, in class, teachers can only teach you that much, if you cannot think out of the box and fear of creating sentences yourselves, your japanese will never be able to improve. You cannot think how to create sentences like "I did not eat tomato, i only ate rice", cause it's not in the textbook..

One way i can recommend how you can think out of the box, listen to songs and look at their lyrics. =)

Opinions/Comments welcome.

Hi Keh Han, hisashiburi!
Very good thoughts about gaining fluency in Japanese... I've often experienced frustration when trying to help someone understand WHY a certain expression is not quite correct, but I cannot explain it adequately with any concrete concepts like grammar and history and so on. Like you said... it seems to come 'naturally' through prolonged exposure to lots of native Japanese (in my case, living there for two years and watching lots of drama).

Having said that, I'm finding that my mastery of Japanese wasn't ever through a formal classroom setting... and I find myself losing what I used to have. Case in point: when I went for a mission project in Sapporo with all Japanese students for two weeks in the summer, I was surprised at the amount of Japanese I could actually use. But after just a week or so of returning to the largely American and Singaporean colleagues back in Tokyo I just felt I couldn't speak that much any more. So I've concluded that for me, the amount of Japanese I'm hearing and the restricted opportunity to fall back to English (because everybody on the team spoke only Japanese) seemed to help 'bring out' some kind of latent mastery of the language that I'd been able to 'pick up' just by what you call 'sensitivity'.

My point is, how can you maintain that kind of 'fluency' when you're no longer in the environment?

since u have the sensitivity to pick up and speak fluently when u're in the enviroment (unless i intepreted yr post wrongly) then it shldnt be much of a problem right? anyway the environment can be created by yrself since internet is available and there are no lack of japanese people in most countries

My point is, how can you maintain that kind of 'fluency' when you're no longer in the environment?

Hi Victor, it's been a while since your question above. It's not an easy question to answer so I thought it's best to think through my answer.

It's a challenge to maintain one's fluency in Japanese outside of Japan. Recently, I've finished reading "Polyglot: How I Learn Languages"by Kato Lomb, "a Hungarian interpreter, translator, language genius and one of the first simultaneous interpreters of the world" (courtesy of Wikipedia).

She introduced the concept of "linguistic microclimate" which is "the linguistic environment which immediately surrounds you in your studies and which you can, to an extent, create for yourself, even in your home". This is exactly what Khatzumoto of the "All Japanese All The Time" blog created for himself to became fluent in Japanese before stepping onto Japan soil.

In Singapore, it's very difficult to maintain one's fluency unless one is using Japanese actively on the job or in social circles where there is frequent contact with Japanese people, so the onus is on oneself to create a "linguistic microclimate". Examples include watching Japanese dramas, listening to Japanese songs, reading Japanese books, surfing websites in Japanese, etc. As one's fluency drops drastically when not using the language, how well one's fluency is maintained is directly proportional to the contact time one has with Japanese.

In my office, there's a guy, Mr. D, who is a Singaporean. As those who are familiar with a typical Japanese office layout will know, the director's table is beside the window and the next senior person's table will be facing the director's table. The less senior person's table faces the next senior person's table in a column, etc.

When I first joined my company, I was a bit surprised when I first heard Mr. D speak Japanese, as his fluency is no different from that of a native Japanese, which is quite rare in Singapore. As my cubicle was near both Mr. D and his Japanese director's tables, I was able to hear their conversations. The more I listened, the more I was impressed with Mr. D's fluency. However, I didn't have a chance to talk to him although we recognised each other.

This week, I met him at a staircase and I asked him whether he had lived in Japan. He replied "6 years". I then complimented him on his Japanese and he dismissed it modestly.

From this, I can conclude that the best way to maintain one's fluency, in the absence of a Japanese spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend or good Japanese friends, is still using Japanese in one's job. Also, I think a precondition is that one's fluency level should be very near or equal to that of a native Japanese, otherwise the drop will be very steep once one is no longer in a purely Japanese-speaking environment.

Unlike my previous Kotsu, this final Kotsu will be short

I've just finished reading "The Last Lecture" by Randy Pausch. I saw this book when it first became available in Singapore last year, but was not really interested in reading it. I saw the book in the Central Library at Victoria St and thought "What the heck, I may as well borrow it".

I read the book in spurts, starting and stopping, as I couldn't really connect with parts 1 and 2 but it became interesting from part 3 onwards to the end, so I finished the book in one sitting today.

So, what's the point?

The point is, if your dream is to communicate either passably or fluently in Japanese, then just go for it! If you don't, then it'll be just a .............................dream.

Keh Han,
Thanks for this very interesting topic. This post has really enlighten me. Yes, it is a wake up post .. :-)

I dreamed a dream ....

thank you,
Indojin.